Hi-Flow Conversion

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thetool

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Maybe no big deal, but I am proud of myself.....=).
Finished yesterday, T300 Gold Package s/n 5254xxxxx, upgraded from standard to hi-flow machine.
About as difficult as it could be, with power bob-tach and A/C stuff in the way and to work-around, my goal was to install without removing the engine/pump or splitting the frame.
The key to success was the prep work, props to Mark in providing patient assistance in providing information to piece out the "kit."
Took a lot of pictures, it was interestinng and fun, I am going to develop procedure documentation next week.
Just braggin', I guess. Any interest, I can post some pics.......=).
 

Tazza

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You know us better than that, we DEMAND pictures!!!
Will be an interesting post i'm sure.
 

coreya3212

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Can't believe you did not give us at least a teaser pic!
The nerve.....lol
Ken
OK, standard to hi flo in my head would have meant a bigger pump. Which you did without removing, so what do you actually replace to make a machine hi flo??
 

Skiddy

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OK, standard to hi flo in my head would have meant a bigger pump. Which you did without removing, so what do you actually replace to make a machine hi flo??
corey I assume when he says "pump" he means stat pump. The hi flow machines have a larger aux pump that runs the auxillary and lift and tilt.
 

Tazza

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corey I assume when he says "pump" he means stat pump. The hi flow machines have a larger aux pump that runs the auxillary and lift and tilt.
They actually run a second pump in parallel with the standard gear pump. Its attached directly to the engine, off the front pulley. They use an electro-mechanical diverter to plumb the flow into the aux circuit when required, when its not needed it simply flows in a circle and does no real work. When he posts details it will make more sense. This is for the standard "7" series sized machines, the larger ones did have a larger 2 section hydraulic pump, one section was the standard flow, the second was combined for hi flow, it has the same dirverter setup.
Correct me if i'm wrong though.
 
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thetool

thetool

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They actually run a second pump in parallel with the standard gear pump. Its attached directly to the engine, off the front pulley. They use an electro-mechanical diverter to plumb the flow into the aux circuit when required, when its not needed it simply flows in a circle and does no real work. When he posts details it will make more sense. This is for the standard "7" series sized machines, the larger ones did have a larger 2 section hydraulic pump, one section was the standard flow, the second was combined for hi flow, it has the same dirverter setup.
Correct me if i'm wrong though.
I guess I sorta left folks hanging, sorry.....=).
On hi-flows, you basically have a gear pump with an extra section, which when activated electrically, tees into aux flow out of the coupler. On large frames, the solenoid valve is on the pump, and on medium frames, there is a separate manifold with a solenoid-valve.
DSC_2419.jpg t300 gear pump picture by tooleeo

This is the standard flow gear pump, from the right side of the machine with the track and drive sprocket removed. Attached to the backside of the pump(left) is the power bob-tach valve, and right close behind that is the A/C compressor. It's all very tight and stuff has to be removed to work down to the pump. The whole job is basically a bunch of separate R&R tasks.....=).
DSC_2442.jpg t300 gear pump2 picture by tooleeo

Left is the new hi-flow pump, right is the standard flow pump, on the ground.
DSC_2487.jpg t300 hi flow conv3 picture by tooleeo

The most difficult part of the job for me was how to get the tubelines swapped out without pulling the engine/pumps or splitting the machine. Quite a bit of assembly removal to get to it, and I still had to cut the old tubeline up to get it out. The new one is in two peices to accomadate the tee-in and is a snap to install.
So basically, it's just a bunch of R&R, getting the correct parts in to make it a factory high-flow machine. It took a bit of time, but a lot of that time was geared toward documenting the procedure, along the lines of cutting labor time it I ever get to do this again, making sure all the correct parts are on-hand when I start, etc.
It's pricey, but of course a guy can try and sell the old pump, maybe the oil cooler, which was also replaced, and recover some cost that way. Dollar wise, to convert to hi-flow is not much more than the dollars a guy would spend to enclose and HVAC the cab. Kits exist for that, why not Hi-flow? I dunno, it was a challenge and I accepted it, and the job was fun.......reason in itself, sometimes......=).
 

Jeffscarstrucks

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I guess I sorta left folks hanging, sorry.....=).
On hi-flows, you basically have a gear pump with an extra section, which when activated electrically, tees into aux flow out of the coupler. On large frames, the solenoid valve is on the pump, and on medium frames, there is a separate manifold with a solenoid-valve.

This is the standard flow gear pump, from the right side of the machine with the track and drive sprocket removed. Attached to the backside of the pump(left) is the power bob-tach valve, and right close behind that is the A/C compressor. It's all very tight and stuff has to be removed to work down to the pump. The whole job is basically a bunch of separate R&R tasks.....=).

Left is the new hi-flow pump, right is the standard flow pump, on the ground.

The most difficult part of the job for me was how to get the tubelines swapped out without pulling the engine/pumps or splitting the machine. Quite a bit of assembly removal to get to it, and I still had to cut the old tubeline up to get it out. The new one is in two peices to accomadate the tee-in and is a snap to install.
So basically, it's just a bunch of R&R, getting the correct parts in to make it a factory high-flow machine. It took a bit of time, but a lot of that time was geared toward documenting the procedure, along the lines of cutting labor time it I ever get to do this again, making sure all the correct parts are on-hand when I start, etc.
It's pricey, but of course a guy can try and sell the old pump, maybe the oil cooler, which was also replaced, and recover some cost that way. Dollar wise, to convert to hi-flow is not much more than the dollars a guy would spend to enclose and HVAC the cab. Kits exist for that, why not Hi-flow? I dunno, it was a challenge and I accepted it, and the job was fun.......reason in itself, sometimes......=).
Interesting and thanks for the pictures! Sometimes it is more about the quest and the ability to make it happen than the end result...nice job, JEFF
 

coreya3212

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Great job. Scott
I am starting to get it. My old girl has 2 pumps in sequence for left and right drive, and I think the aux hyd just steal off those. These have a third pump for aux hyd?? So the Hi flo is really changing the pump after all? And this makes no sense to me still. Interesting and good job none the less.
 
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thetool

thetool

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I am starting to get it. My old girl has 2 pumps in sequence for left and right drive, and I think the aux hyd just steal off those. These have a third pump for aux hyd?? So the Hi flo is really changing the pump after all? And this makes no sense to me still. Interesting and good job none the less.
hey corey-
I can't remember what model you have, but most all Hydrostatic Bobcats have a stack of pumps, which is oftern referred to as "the pump." Left and right hydrostatic pumps, then on the end, the hydraulic pump. Sometimes called the gear pump, charge pump, implement pump, etc. It dosen't really take off from the hydrostatic pumps, but it is truned by a common shaft, which runs in length throught the center of the pump stack and is turned by the engine.
The end pump on the stack, the one I replaced, is another stack of gear pumps. An extra section on the end, or another additional gear pump on the entire gear pump assembly, is what you need for a high-flow machine, the flow from the extra section is added into the aux circuit on demand.
 

coreya3212

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hey corey-
I can't remember what model you have, but most all Hydrostatic Bobcats have a stack of pumps, which is oftern referred to as "the pump." Left and right hydrostatic pumps, then on the end, the hydraulic pump. Sometimes called the gear pump, charge pump, implement pump, etc. It dosen't really take off from the hydrostatic pumps, but it is truned by a common shaft, which runs in length throught the center of the pump stack and is turned by the engine.
The end pump on the stack, the one I replaced, is another stack of gear pumps. An extra section on the end, or another additional gear pump on the entire gear pump assembly, is what you need for a high-flow machine, the flow from the extra section is added into the aux circuit on demand.
HA. This is getting worse. To amend my earlier statement, I now have no idea what mine is and I dont know what Shane did either. I am gonna study my service manual tonight....
 

Tazza

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HA. This is getting worse. To amend my earlier statement, I now have no idea what mine is and I dont know what Shane did either. I am gonna study my service manual tonight....
No oil from the drive pumps (hydrostatic pumps) are used for the main hydraulics, be it aux or lift/tilt operations. The gear pump on the end of the picton pumps (drive pumps) provides oil for the hydraulics and also acts as a charge pump for the drive pumps (this just replaces oil that leaks back to the reserve tank through internal leakage of the motors). On some machines you simply replace the gear pump with a 2 segment pump, this is what Shane did. Others use a second pump that is attached to the front pulley of the engine. Both are linked into the aux circuit with an electric flow diverter so you can enable or disable it.
Having a peek at your service manual would be a good idea, it gives you more of an understanding of what's going on.
 

sp6x6

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Jan 13, 2009
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hey corey-
I can't remember what model you have, but most all Hydrostatic Bobcats have a stack of pumps, which is oftern referred to as "the pump." Left and right hydrostatic pumps, then on the end, the hydraulic pump. Sometimes called the gear pump, charge pump, implement pump, etc. It dosen't really take off from the hydrostatic pumps, but it is truned by a common shaft, which runs in length throught the center of the pump stack and is turned by the engine.
The end pump on the stack, the one I replaced, is another stack of gear pumps. An extra section on the end, or another additional gear pump on the entire gear pump assembly, is what you need for a high-flow machine, the flow from the extra section is added into the aux circuit on demand.
The tool, glad to see you got some practiced. I still want a s205 decked out, but the economy may say differrent. May end up seeing you yet for the same job. Shoulda wouda.
 
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thetool

thetool

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The tool, glad to see you got some practiced. I still want a s205 decked out, but the economy may say differrent. May end up seeing you yet for the same job. Shoulda wouda.
Thanks for the replies, fellas.....=).
Corey-when you look at your manual, it's quite simple, but if you have an old school in-line machine (743, 843) the pictures I took can throw a guy off, because the setup is so different on the newer machines.
SP-yeah-you were the guy who originally prompted me to look into doing this.....=). This procedure I just did was for a large-frame loader, your S185 will be somewhat different. I look forward to a trip to Montana at your earliest convenience.....=). I can cut you a little slack even, using your machine to develop the procedure for medium frames......=).
Someone like TriHonu could probably figure out a totally aftermarket set-up, but I cannot see any room inside the newer machines to hang stuff that is not OEM, for example, building a bracket and mounting an additional pump to the front.
We have always been told the cost is prohibitive to convert to hi-flow, that it is "cheaper" to buy a factory hi-flow machine. If you don't already have one, then it certainly is cheaper to simply order with that option.
I think there are a lot of guys out there that bought a "Gold Package" machine and think they have a fully-loaded Bobcat, and when they start thinking about buying a snow-blower or some other hi-flow attachment, are disappointed to find out that they don't have the machine to run it.
Depending on the age and condition of their machine, the dealer's attitude and current inventory, margins and other hi-brow bean-counting marketing terms and formulae (BS, in other words), it may cost 10-15K to upgrade to a hi-flow machine. Or more? Of course the dealer is going to tell you it's in your best interest to buy a new machine with factory hi-flow.....=). But is it really "cheaper?" It depends on the individual situation, I guess.
After this job, I can state that it seems to me that I can get a guy into hi-flow for about 5K total, or less, the newer the machine. Probably about the same for medium frames, they need and extra diverter, but there are other things that don't need to be done as with the large-frames.
If you take it to the dealer and tell him to do it, he's probably going to fight you and go at it with the wrong attitude, you want that result? Add his labor rate, and it's not a good deal.
A guy can do it himself with my procedure, and save even more. This is my thinking. What do you guys think about that?
 

skidsteer.ca

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Thanks for the replies, fellas.....=).
Corey-when you look at your manual, it's quite simple, but if you have an old school in-line machine (743, 843) the pictures I took can throw a guy off, because the setup is so different on the newer machines.
SP-yeah-you were the guy who originally prompted me to look into doing this.....=). This procedure I just did was for a large-frame loader, your S185 will be somewhat different. I look forward to a trip to Montana at your earliest convenience.....=). I can cut you a little slack even, using your machine to develop the procedure for medium frames......=).
Someone like TriHonu could probably figure out a totally aftermarket set-up, but I cannot see any room inside the newer machines to hang stuff that is not OEM, for example, building a bracket and mounting an additional pump to the front.
We have always been told the cost is prohibitive to convert to hi-flow, that it is "cheaper" to buy a factory hi-flow machine. If you don't already have one, then it certainly is cheaper to simply order with that option.
I think there are a lot of guys out there that bought a "Gold Package" machine and think they have a fully-loaded Bobcat, and when they start thinking about buying a snow-blower or some other hi-flow attachment, are disappointed to find out that they don't have the machine to run it.
Depending on the age and condition of their machine, the dealer's attitude and current inventory, margins and other hi-brow bean-counting marketing terms and formulae (BS, in other words), it may cost 10-15K to upgrade to a hi-flow machine. Or more? Of course the dealer is going to tell you it's in your best interest to buy a new machine with factory hi-flow.....=). But is it really "cheaper?" It depends on the individual situation, I guess.
After this job, I can state that it seems to me that I can get a guy into hi-flow for about 5K total, or less, the newer the machine. Probably about the same for medium frames, they need and extra diverter, but there are other things that don't need to be done as with the large-frames.
If you take it to the dealer and tell him to do it, he's probably going to fight you and go at it with the wrong attitude, you want that result? Add his labor rate, and it's not a good deal.
A guy can do it himself with my procedure, and save even more. This is my thinking. What do you guys think about that?
I got pretty lucky with the NH I did, picked up the old style kit for a simular JD skid (same frame but used a Yanmar engine) from a Deere dealer closing out old stock. Its old school and belt drives the second pump off the crank as opposed to piggy backing the two pumps. (if my pump fails I can buy the double pump in the future) It was about 25 hours to install and I had to machine a spacer to put the pulley on the NH engine. Total cash outlay was about 600 plus labour. There was no rocket science to mine and back then hi flow was a dealer installed kit.
Today dealers installing a kit would be pretty cost prohibited for the reasons mentioned, but doing it yourself or helping a local mechanic do it would work on machine that had good life left in them.
Many people mistakenly think their Bobcat has hi flow because the switch is there on all medium and large frame models.
Ken
 

farmboy55

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I got pretty lucky with the NH I did, picked up the old style kit for a simular JD skid (same frame but used a Yanmar engine) from a Deere dealer closing out old stock. Its old school and belt drives the second pump off the crank as opposed to piggy backing the two pumps. (if my pump fails I can buy the double pump in the future) It was about 25 hours to install and I had to machine a spacer to put the pulley on the NH engine. Total cash outlay was about 600 plus labour. There was no rocket science to mine and back then hi flow was a dealer installed kit.
Today dealers installing a kit would be pretty cost prohibited for the reasons mentioned, but doing it yourself or helping a local mechanic do it would work on machine that had good life left in them.
Many people mistakenly think their Bobcat has hi flow because the switch is there on all medium and large frame models.
Ken
Your right Ken, I was doing a demo on a in ground pool Monday and a guy stopped by with a T180 and ask how to get the Hi flow working. It didn't have it, most see it on the dash and think that means it has it. Keep the onfo flowing. dennis
 

Tazza

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Your right Ken, I was doing a demo on a in ground pool Monday and a guy stopped by with a T180 and ask how to get the Hi flow working. It didn't have it, most see it on the dash and think that means it has it. Keep the onfo flowing. dennis
I agree, i bought my 753G from up north, all i saw were pictures. It was listed as hi-flow as it had the button. Lif the cab and nope, no hi-flow pump fitted. I can't see i would ever need it, but still a nice feature to have "just in case". It was cheap enough, with just over 1,000 hours i'm happy.
 

Sam_French

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I agree, i bought my 753G from up north, all i saw were pictures. It was listed as hi-flow as it had the button. Lif the cab and nope, no hi-flow pump fitted. I can't see i would ever need it, but still a nice feature to have "just in case". It was cheap enough, with just over 1,000 hours i'm happy.
Hello guys. I have a 743B with aux. How hard would it be to add one to mine? TheTool THANK YOU for posting this. I am very new to bobcats. I will be keeping this machine for some time so to me it looks to be a viable investment. God Bless Sam French
 
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